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The myth of Catholic Unity:
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Re: The myth of Catholic Unity:
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xof129
subject one to another - Obeying Jesus vs Elders
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Jul 28 03 3:47 PM
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I have seen/met very few elders or pastors that I would ever submit to, or allow the same for my family.
But I have seen a FEW pastors who have Biblical teachings in accordance with the Word of God, and therefore I would submit to those teachings which they may represent.
Titus 1:9 indeed states it well:
1:9 "Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers."
We can see in this verse that the emphasis is on exhortation through Sound Doctrine, not by appealing to personal leadership. Many pastors make appeals to personal leadership
when they should be focusing on sound doctrine.
It is important to note that the leadership of Pastors and Church leaders is severely constrained by the text, and that their leadership extends only insofar as their doctrine lines up with scripture. Thus the Biblical text is the validator of all Pastors and methods of pastoral leadership.
A shepherd leads but of what benefit if the flock in defiance to earthly leadership refuses to follow ? I only know of the term of "shepherd" used in unusual circumstances among Protestants these days. Usually deacons or elders are simply that, and pastors are often simply called... Pastors.
However, if a Pastor is a Biblical Pastor leading Biblically and teaching Biblically, the congregation - as it seeks also to follow the Lord - will follow that Pastor.
"but to your own elders you owe submission to their leading"
I would say that you owe them the Commitment of a fellow believer in Jesus Christ to hold them accountable for their actions, their statements and their doctrines, and that you would Test Everything (1 Thess 5:21 "Test everything. Hold on to the good.").
Some pastors actually do their job of teaching good theology, but there are precious few. And few of them teach Bible Study. Few of them actually believe in their own accountability to the congregations. IF the Pastors were really doing much of their job, then we would not be seeing the negative statistics found in McDowell's latest book "Beyond Belief" (nor in the earlier work of Barna). How many of us here can say that our Pastors have truly prepared us to know how to give an answer of the hope that lies within us ?
How many pastors have equipped us to deal with culture, or public school education, or university professors or corporate culture, or how to be truly spiritually strong and ready, and stand up against those who teach false doctrines...even in chuches ?
It is unfortunate that good pastors will feel sometimes painted with a brush that condemns bad pastors, but I would prefer to warn the flock and have them avoid bad pastors, than I would prefer to rebuke the flock for being vigilant, watchfull and ready...and see more pastors arrogate to themselves power to which they are in no way entitled and victimize the flock under the guise of ministry.
This land will scream out against the Pastors and Church leaders who are departing from the faith and victimizing those that the Lord has entrusted to them. "For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God".... And while some victimizations are obvious, not teaching truths and accurate doctrine from these pulpits will mean that these Pastors will have set up their congregations to become the prey of wolves more ravenous than themselves.
Ezekiel 34:2
" Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto the shepherds; Woe be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks?
3 Ye eat the fat, and ye clothe you with the wool, ye kill them that are fed: but ye feed not the flock.
4 The diseased have ye not strengthened, neither have ye healed that which was sick, neither have ye bound up that which was broken, neither have ye brought again that which was driven away, neither have ye sought that which was lost; but with force and with cruelty have ye ruled them.
5 And they were scattered, because there is no shepherd: and they became meat to all the beasts of the field, when they were scattered.
6 My sheep wandered through all the mountains, and upon every high hill: yea, my flock was scattered upon all the face of the earth, and none did search or seek after them.
7 Therefore, ye shepherds, hear the word of the LORD;
8 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, surely because my flock became a prey, and my flock became meat to every beast of the field, because there was no shepherd, neither did my shepherds search for my flock, but the shepherds fed themselves, and fed not my flock;
9 Therefore, O ye shepherds, hear the word of the LORD;
10 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against the shepherds; and I will require my flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock; neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more; for I will deliver my flock from their mouth, that they may not be meat for them.
11 For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out.
12 As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day.
13 And I will bring them out from the people, and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land, and feed them upon the mountains of Israel by the rivers, and in all the inhabited places of the country.
14 I will feed them in a good pasture, and upon the high mountains of Israel shall their fold be: there shall they lie in a good fold, and in a fat pasture shall they feed upon the mountains of Israel.
15 I will feed my flock, and I will cause them to lie down, saith the Lord GOD.
16 I will seek that which was lost, and bring again that which was driven away, and will bind up that which was broken, and will strengthen that which was sick: but I will destroy the fat and the strong; I will feed them with judgment. "
1 Peter 4
17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.
5:1 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.
4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.
5 Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.
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