Guys, this is my last post for awhile. My wife had a miscarriage last night and I'm really not in the mood to debate. I want to clear this up though. The responses on the other thread made it obvious there is miscommunication.
I'll post my response from the other thread, along with these new points to wrap everything up. I'm not going to argue about it, but with my heart and soul, I believe this to be a biblical truth.
First, to clarify, Jesus indeed died once, suffered once, entered into the holy of holies once. No sacrifice again, no resacrifice. I agree with you on that, okay? Everyone here seems to think I believe the opposite is true. I hope that clears that up.
The debate is continual vs. not continual in Hebrews, right? Continual WHAT? Continual death and suffering vs. one time death and suffering, as the Bible shows below. The Bible shows what "offered once" refers to and its pointed out below.
I've also included one other thing. Many have said that Jesus intercession as high priest refers to prayer. Nowhere does the Bible show this, in fact as you will see, the Bible shows his intercession as high priest refers to his sacrifce.
White says:
"The entire point of the author, that of contrasting the repeated sacrifices of the old priesthood to the singular, forever offering of Christ, is turned upside down"
Wrong, the contrast of Christ's one time sacrifice is still there - word for word scripture - as I'm about to show.
He says:
"so that Christ ends up offering (present tense) a sacrifice for sins, just like the old priests!"
He's a liar, just like I told you. IN NOW WAY SHAPE OR FORM IS IT "JUST LIKE THE OLD PRIESTS".
I know for a fact that White has been shown REPEATEDLY that the Catholic understanding of this is not "just like" the other priests, yet he continues with this misrepresentation of the Catholic understanding. He even argued against the CORRECT Catholic understanding of this, which proves he knows what the misrepresentation is.
Now, about the contrast in Hebrews AND WHY ITS NOT "JUST LIKE" THE OTHER PRIESTS.
Even though "Dr." White claims it disappears with Catholics, we all agree that the sacrifices of the OT are being CONTRASTED to the sacrifice of Christ, correct?
I BELIEVE THE CONTRAST IS THERE GUYS. GOT THAT?
WHAT is being contrasted though?
You guys say it shows continual sacrifice being contrasted so it means that Christ's sacrifice cannot be perpetual.
Look again. That isn't what is contrasted - the contrast is repeated, CONTINUAL DEATH AND BLOOD SHED vs. one death and shedding of blood - no continual death or bloodshed. ONE DEATH, ONE SHEDDING OF BLOOD, NOT REPEATED, CONTINUAL DEATH AND BLOOD SHED LIKE IN THE OT.
If, as you say, Paul is showing that Jesus doesn't offer himself forever, then the contrast would be Paul showing that the OT priests offered sacrifice forever - Christ's sacrifice is in contrast to theirs.
If the main point, as you say is Christ doesn't offer forever, what would Paul be showing in contrast to this? What would be the opposite of that? The forever sacrifice of the OT. Can't be.
That would be the contrast of Christ not offering forever.
Look again closely. The contrast being shown is that Jesus does not suffer and die repeatedly and offer the blood of others continually, as was the case with the OT - repeated death, repeated blood. He died once with his own blood. That is what is contrasted. The Bible makes that very clear.
"Once" is in contrast to the repeated death of the OT - his death is not repeated. Thats what is shown with "once". Its not saying that "once" cannot mean everlasting. Look again:
Hebrews 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, AS the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others
26 For then (if he offers "AS" the OT high priests do) must he OFTEN HAVE SUFFERED (see what "often" is contrasted to?) since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 And as it is appointed unto men ONCE TO DIE, but after this the judgment:
28 So ("so" - which is going back to "ONCE TO DIE" Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
Do you see what is being contrast here? Look at the context. You are saying that he isn't offered forever. In contrast to what? The OT priests offering forever? Of course not, but that would be the direct contrast to what you present.
How do you get that out of what I highlighted here - what is highlighted is what is being contrasted.
Do you see it? "Often" refers to repeated death - "AS" was the case in the OT. It does not mean that a one time sacrifice is not perpetual. It means that Jesus does not "often suffer" the repeated death "AS" was the case with the OT sacrifices.
It is very clear here that the Bible is showing that "often" in contrast to "once" is referring to repeated death and not the fact that "once" doesn't mean perpetual. Look at the words used that show this:
SUFFERING OFTEN - in contrast to the repeated death of the OT, He suffers death once, not repeatedly, not often. In conrast, death was repeated in the OT.
See the contrast the Bible presents? SUFFERING OFTEN, REPEATED DEATH vs.ONCE. Go ahead, deny scripture and tell me the Bible doesn't show suffering often, repeated death as a contrast to Christ's sacrifice.
Furthermore:
"And as it is appointed unto men once to die... So also Christ was offered once".
What does that show? Does that say that it is not a perpetual sacrifice or does that mean "SO ALSO" Chirst ALSO dies ONCE. What does "so also" refer back to? Dying once.
More:
"And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins he sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time until his enemies should be a footstool for his feet. For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified. . . . Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin. "
What does offering refer to? What happened when the OT priests were "offering repeatedly"? Repeated death, just as was pointed out before. Look at this verse in the context of what I just showed you. Christ does not undergo this by suffering often like they did by suffering death time after time after time "with the blood of others".
And again, look what "once" refers to. "And as it is appointed unto men once to die".... So also Christ was offered once"
Does that say that it is not a perpetual sacrifice or does that mean "SO ALSO" Chirst ALSO dies ONCE. What does "so also" refer back to?
As you can see, the contrast is repeated, continual death vs. one death.
JESUS IS PRIEST FOREVER - EVER LIVING TO INTERCEDE ON OUR BELHALF.
INTERCESSION AS HIGH PRIEST:
Hebrews 7:25: Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
This refers to Jesus and his intercession as high priest. Several of you, believing his sacrifice is not everlasting, say his intercession as high priest refers to prayer.
Look at the context of the verse though. HE IS ABLE TO SAVE THEM by ever living to make interercession for them.
What saves? The sacrifice of Jesus. Present tense: IS ABLE.
The Bible shows that the high priest intercedes with sacrifice:
Hebrews 8:3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.
"Also to offer" refers back to what? What is EVERY high priest ORDAINED TO OFFER?
Hebrews again makes it very clear how a high priest intercedes:
Hebrews 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
"To make reconciliation for the sins of the people". How does Jesus the high priest make reconciliation for sins?
More proof that his intercession refers to his sacrifice:
Hebrews 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament
For what cause is he mediator of the new covenant? The puging. How is this done? BY HIS BLOOD, AS THE VERSE CLEARLY STATES. HIS MEDIATION IS ACCOMPLISHED BY HIS BLOOD.
The Bible states that Jesus appears now before God on our behalf:
Hebrews 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
How does he appear before God for us? With prayer? NO.
Look how it continues - THIS IS HOW HE APPEARS FOR US - A DIRECT REFERENCE TO HIS SACRIFICE.
25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Not often with the blood of others like the priests of the OT, then he would suffer often. Once. A one time offering - A DIRECT REFERENCE TO HIS ONE TIME SACRIFICE WHEN REFERRING TO JESUS APPEARING BEFORE GOD FOR US.
His sacrifice is one time, never ending if he is high priest, mediator of the new covenant, ever living to intercede before God for us. One time. No repeated death. One time. No repeated suffering. One time. No repeated offering. The SAME offering existing forever. A HIGH PRIEST MEDIATES WITH SACRIFICE AS THE ABOVE VERSES CLEARLY SHOW.
In no way shape or form can any of you find one verse in Hebrews saying Jesus interecedes as high priest just with prayer. Scripture in fact shows that his intercession REFERS TO HIS SACRIFICE.
God Bless,
Doug
I'll post my response from the other thread, along with these new points to wrap everything up. I'm not going to argue about it, but with my heart and soul, I believe this to be a biblical truth.
First, to clarify, Jesus indeed died once, suffered once, entered into the holy of holies once. No sacrifice again, no resacrifice. I agree with you on that, okay? Everyone here seems to think I believe the opposite is true. I hope that clears that up.
The debate is continual vs. not continual in Hebrews, right? Continual WHAT? Continual death and suffering vs. one time death and suffering, as the Bible shows below. The Bible shows what "offered once" refers to and its pointed out below.
I've also included one other thing. Many have said that Jesus intercession as high priest refers to prayer. Nowhere does the Bible show this, in fact as you will see, the Bible shows his intercession as high priest refers to his sacrifce.
White says:
"The entire point of the author, that of contrasting the repeated sacrifices of the old priesthood to the singular, forever offering of Christ, is turned upside down"
Wrong, the contrast of Christ's one time sacrifice is still there - word for word scripture - as I'm about to show.
He says:
"so that Christ ends up offering (present tense) a sacrifice for sins, just like the old priests!"
He's a liar, just like I told you. IN NOW WAY SHAPE OR FORM IS IT "JUST LIKE THE OLD PRIESTS".
I know for a fact that White has been shown REPEATEDLY that the Catholic understanding of this is not "just like" the other priests, yet he continues with this misrepresentation of the Catholic understanding. He even argued against the CORRECT Catholic understanding of this, which proves he knows what the misrepresentation is.
Now, about the contrast in Hebrews AND WHY ITS NOT "JUST LIKE" THE OTHER PRIESTS.
Even though "Dr." White claims it disappears with Catholics, we all agree that the sacrifices of the OT are being CONTRASTED to the sacrifice of Christ, correct?
I BELIEVE THE CONTRAST IS THERE GUYS. GOT THAT?
WHAT is being contrasted though?
You guys say it shows continual sacrifice being contrasted so it means that Christ's sacrifice cannot be perpetual.
Look again. That isn't what is contrasted - the contrast is repeated, CONTINUAL DEATH AND BLOOD SHED vs. one death and shedding of blood - no continual death or bloodshed. ONE DEATH, ONE SHEDDING OF BLOOD, NOT REPEATED, CONTINUAL DEATH AND BLOOD SHED LIKE IN THE OT.
If, as you say, Paul is showing that Jesus doesn't offer himself forever, then the contrast would be Paul showing that the OT priests offered sacrifice forever - Christ's sacrifice is in contrast to theirs.
If the main point, as you say is Christ doesn't offer forever, what would Paul be showing in contrast to this? What would be the opposite of that? The forever sacrifice of the OT. Can't be.
That would be the contrast of Christ not offering forever.
Look again closely. The contrast being shown is that Jesus does not suffer and die repeatedly and offer the blood of others continually, as was the case with the OT - repeated death, repeated blood. He died once with his own blood. That is what is contrasted. The Bible makes that very clear.
"Once" is in contrast to the repeated death of the OT - his death is not repeated. Thats what is shown with "once". Its not saying that "once" cannot mean everlasting. Look again:
Hebrews 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, AS the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others
26 For then (if he offers "AS" the OT high priests do) must he OFTEN HAVE SUFFERED (see what "often" is contrasted to?) since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 And as it is appointed unto men ONCE TO DIE, but after this the judgment:
28 So ("so" - which is going back to "ONCE TO DIE" Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
Do you see what is being contrast here? Look at the context. You are saying that he isn't offered forever. In contrast to what? The OT priests offering forever? Of course not, but that would be the direct contrast to what you present.
How do you get that out of what I highlighted here - what is highlighted is what is being contrasted.
Do you see it? "Often" refers to repeated death - "AS" was the case in the OT. It does not mean that a one time sacrifice is not perpetual. It means that Jesus does not "often suffer" the repeated death "AS" was the case with the OT sacrifices.
It is very clear here that the Bible is showing that "often" in contrast to "once" is referring to repeated death and not the fact that "once" doesn't mean perpetual. Look at the words used that show this:
SUFFERING OFTEN - in contrast to the repeated death of the OT, He suffers death once, not repeatedly, not often. In conrast, death was repeated in the OT.
See the contrast the Bible presents? SUFFERING OFTEN, REPEATED DEATH vs.ONCE. Go ahead, deny scripture and tell me the Bible doesn't show suffering often, repeated death as a contrast to Christ's sacrifice.
Furthermore:
"And as it is appointed unto men once to die... So also Christ was offered once".
What does that show? Does that say that it is not a perpetual sacrifice or does that mean "SO ALSO" Chirst ALSO dies ONCE. What does "so also" refer back to? Dying once.
More:
"And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins he sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time until his enemies should be a footstool for his feet. For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified. . . . Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin. "
What does offering refer to? What happened when the OT priests were "offering repeatedly"? Repeated death, just as was pointed out before. Look at this verse in the context of what I just showed you. Christ does not undergo this by suffering often like they did by suffering death time after time after time "with the blood of others".
And again, look what "once" refers to. "And as it is appointed unto men once to die".... So also Christ was offered once"
Does that say that it is not a perpetual sacrifice or does that mean "SO ALSO" Chirst ALSO dies ONCE. What does "so also" refer back to?
As you can see, the contrast is repeated, continual death vs. one death.
JESUS IS PRIEST FOREVER - EVER LIVING TO INTERCEDE ON OUR BELHALF.
INTERCESSION AS HIGH PRIEST:
Hebrews 7:25: Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
This refers to Jesus and his intercession as high priest. Several of you, believing his sacrifice is not everlasting, say his intercession as high priest refers to prayer.
Look at the context of the verse though. HE IS ABLE TO SAVE THEM by ever living to make interercession for them.
What saves? The sacrifice of Jesus. Present tense: IS ABLE.
The Bible shows that the high priest intercedes with sacrifice:
Hebrews 8:3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.
"Also to offer" refers back to what? What is EVERY high priest ORDAINED TO OFFER?
Hebrews again makes it very clear how a high priest intercedes:
Hebrews 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
"To make reconciliation for the sins of the people". How does Jesus the high priest make reconciliation for sins?
More proof that his intercession refers to his sacrifice:
Hebrews 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament
For what cause is he mediator of the new covenant? The puging. How is this done? BY HIS BLOOD, AS THE VERSE CLEARLY STATES. HIS MEDIATION IS ACCOMPLISHED BY HIS BLOOD.
The Bible states that Jesus appears now before God on our behalf:
Hebrews 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
How does he appear before God for us? With prayer? NO.
Look how it continues - THIS IS HOW HE APPEARS FOR US - A DIRECT REFERENCE TO HIS SACRIFICE.
25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Not often with the blood of others like the priests of the OT, then he would suffer often. Once. A one time offering - A DIRECT REFERENCE TO HIS ONE TIME SACRIFICE WHEN REFERRING TO JESUS APPEARING BEFORE GOD FOR US.
His sacrifice is one time, never ending if he is high priest, mediator of the new covenant, ever living to intercede before God for us. One time. No repeated death. One time. No repeated suffering. One time. No repeated offering. The SAME offering existing forever. A HIGH PRIEST MEDIATES WITH SACRIFICE AS THE ABOVE VERSES CLEARLY SHOW.
In no way shape or form can any of you find one verse in Hebrews saying Jesus interecedes as high priest just with prayer. Scripture in fact shows that his intercession REFERS TO HIS SACRIFICE.
God Bless,
Doug
