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Quote:Untrue. It is clear that Pope Clement, in the first century, believed he had much greater authority than other bishops or else he would never have written to the Corinthians telling them what to do.
Quote: You were submissive to your officials and paid the older men among you the respect due to them.
Quote:Day and night you vied with one another in behalf of the entire brotherhood, to further the salvation of the full number of His elect by your compassion and conscientiousness. Guileless and sincere you were, and bore one another no malice. The very thought of insubordination and schism was an abomination to you.
Quote:It is right and holy, therefore, brethren, that we should be submissive to God rather than follow those who through arrogance and insubordination are the ringleaders in a quarrel fomented by detestable jealousy. No
Quote:Let us, then, quickly blot out this blemish and fall on our knees before the Master, and with tears implore Him to have mercy on us and be reconciled to us and restore us to the venerable and holy practice of brotherly love
Quote:Let us, then, ask pardon for our waywardness and for what we have done yielding to any wiles of the adversary
Quote:"Then, Calixtus I, whose most celebrated accomplishment recorded in Britannica is the transfer of the Roman Christians cemetery from the Via Salaria to the Via Appia,"So this guy relies on an encyclopedia for his research?
Quote:No, Matthew 16 is, in fact, about the establishment of Peter as the Rock, a prophecy of it. And what proof is there that Calixtus was the first to talk about Matthew 16?
Quote:Despite the great importance Matthew 16.18-19 was to acquire in the Scriptural arsenal of the Roman Church, no bishop of Rome appealed to this passage as a Dominical warrant of papal authority until early in the third century, when Callistus (ca. 217-22),(12) it seems, did so to justify his extension of penance to members of his community who had been guilty of fornication or adultery, or even, it would appear, of murder or apostasy, all of which had previously been regarded as the deadliest and most unforgivable of sins. In discussing this incident, Tertullian (d. after 220) insisted that the words of Jesus in question applied only to Peter and not in any sense to Callistus, whom he ironically dubbed pontifex maximus, quod est episcopus episcoporum ("chief pontiff, i.e., bishop of bishops" , epithets which in point of fact correspond well with the position which the bishops of Rome later aspired to and eventually attained in the West.
Quote:Notice: Calixtus became pope AFTER Tertullian became a heretic so whatever Tertullian said about him is not particularly important now is it?
Quote:Maybe we don't find this because it never happened. Here are the actual details about the council: "Thereafter, Pope Leo succeeded in getting both Emperors to call the Council of Chalcedon in 451. At this Council, attended by about 600 bishops (almost all of the Eastern Church), Pope Leo's Tome against Monophysitism and for the orthodox teaching of the two natures of Christ was embraced with the pronouncement:"This is the faith of the fathers! This is the faith of the Apostles! So we all believe! thus the orthodox believe! Anathema to him who does not thus believe! Peter has spoken thus through Leo! . . . This is the true faith!'" (Acts of the Council, session 2 ).
Quote:Really? So Catholic apologists would insult a CATHOLIC SAINT? No, I don't think so. This is getting nuttier all the time. One must remember that Augustine also said: "Peter, who had confessed Him the Son of God, and in that confession had been called the rock upon which the Church should be built." (Augustine, In Ps. lxix. n. 4, Tom. iv. p. 1020, ed. Bened. 1836) in Charles F. B. Allnatt, ed., Cathedra Petri -- the Titles abd Perogatives of St. Peter, (London: Burns and Oates, 1879), 23.
Quote:Incorrect. All the popes had authority whether forgeries existed or not. Where is the evidence for these accusations anyway?
Quote:Yes, actually there was. We know the following about the Council of Nicea: "The Council of Nicaea 325 AD WAS a Catholic Council: Sometimes the absurd claim is made that the church of Nicaea in 325 was not the Catholic Church. These are the typical arguments, and the appropriate Catholic refutation.
Quote:The emperor himself, in very respectful letters, begged the bishops of every country to come promptly to Nicaea. Several bishops from outside the Roman Empire (e.g., from Persia) came to the Council. It is not historically known whether the emperor in convoking the Council acted solely in his own name or in concert with the pope; however, it is probable that Constantine and Sylvester came to an agreement (see POPE ST. SYLVESTER I). In order to expedite the assembling of the Council, the emperor placed at the disposal of the bishops the public conveyances and posts of the empire; moreover, while the Council lasted he provided abundantly for the maintenance of the members.
Quote:"Response 4: About 180 St. Irenaeus of Lyons in Gaul wrote: "By pointing out the apostolic tradition and creed which has been brought down to us by a succession of bishops in the greatest, most ancient and well-known church, founded by the two most glorious Apostles Peter and Paul at Rome,
Quote:"Constantine, who is not listed as a pope in Romes papal lineage, himself assumed the leadership of the churches and took the title Pontifex Maximus highest priest."Incorrect. The Pontifex Maximus title at the time of Constantine was a title held exclusively BY THE PAGAN ROMAN EMPERORS and had nothing to do with Christianity.
Quote:The reverse depicts a figure of Pope John Paul II seen in the background against the stylised Holy Gate of St. Peter's Basilica in Rome. Above in a semicircle an inscription: PONTIFEX MAXIMUS. The following text is taken directly from the certificate of authenticity that comes in the presentation case with the gold edition of this coin.John Paul II is the first non-Italian pope in 455 years, the first Polish pope and surely the first Slavonic pope. According to ancient Latin formula a pope is called Pontifex Maximus, ie. Supreme Priest, Arch Priest
Quote:Clearly Schroeder is wrong again. How could Sylvester have the title when it had not been given up by the emperors yet? Did Schroeder do any research at all?
Quote:Incorrect. These episcopates did not emerge in that century except for Constantinople because Constantinople was a new city and the new seat of imperial authority so Constantine asked that a great episcopate be established there. The others already existed and were very famous. And they held great authority.
Quote:No, there was no attempted seizure of Christendom by Pope Siricius. In 385 a bishop, named Himerius, asked Siricius, because of his authority to resolve questions he had about practice. He did so. That is hardly an attempted seizure of Christendom.
Quote:Siricius is noted for being the author of the first papal decretal which has survived. There were earlier ones, but this is the first that has come down to modern times. A decretal contains an authoritative decision on questions of discipline.
Quote:The occasion of this decretal was a letter from Himerius, bishop of Tarragona in Spain, who wrote to Pope Damasus asking for his decision in several matters of discipline. Siricius answered on February 10, and ordered that his reply should be communicated to the neighboring bishops. Among other things the Pope declared that converted Arians did not have to be rebaptized and that priests should be celibate.On January 6, 386, Pope Siricius held a synod at Rome, attended by eighty bishops, at which a number of disciplinary decisions were made. The Pope sent these decisions to the bishops of North Africa. He also sent out a letter to various churches urging the election of worthy bishops and priests.
Quote:This is absurd. This is what Chalcedon said about Leo: Thereafter, Pope Leo succeeded in getting both Emperors to call the Council of Chalcedon in 451. At this Council, attended by about 600 bishops (almost all of the Eastern Church),...blah blah...blah...Clearly, Schroeder is wrong YET again.....
Quote:Now, many anti-Catholic scholars have tried to chip away at the significance of this statement. However, when compared to other contemporary writings, the meaning of the Council Fathers becomes abundantly clear:
Quote:Clearly there was a papacy or else there could have been no Pope Leo! How can Schroeder simply make this stuff up and not realize that it doesnt even make sense?What amazes about all this is how the Vatican has been able to obliterate the actual early Church history, successfully replacing it with the fairytales of apostolic succession and an unbroken chain of popes stretching all the way back to Peter.
Quote:In the end, the Council of Chalcedon led, as the First Council of Ephesus did before it, to a lasting separation.The non-Chalcedonian Christians of Egypt eventually formed what is known today as the Coptic Orthodox Church, currently with over nine million members in Egypt alone, and many more all over the world, including the United States, Europe, and Asia
Quote:Dioscoros, the formidable Pope of Alexandria interested himself in the affair, and the eunuch Chrysaphios influenced Emperor Theodosius II to the end that a retrial was ordered, and a council convened at Ephesus. The Roman Popes legates arrived at Ephesus carrying his Tome, formally a letter to Flavian
Quote: What Gregory denied was a title given to him, or applied to him, by a Archbishop John the Faster, Universal Bishop. Please note that the title was Universal Bishop and not Universal Priest (Pontifex Maximus doesnt mean Universal Priest either. Schroeder needs to study some Latin so he wont make these basic mistakes).
Quote:Incorrect. The Donation of Constantine was a forgery made by an unknown person or persons to confirm what already existed.
Quote:Incorrect. The Popes always pointed to Christ as the establisher of the papacy and only acknowledged the Donation of Constantine as the recognition granted it by the state and that recognition was real and genuine even if the document was not. Schroeder, not surprisingly ignores that obvious fact.
Quote:This is perhaps the most famous forgery in history. For centuries, until Lorenzo Valla proved it was forgery during the Renaissance it provied the basis for papal territorial and jurisdictional claims in Italy. Probably at least a first draft of it was made shortly after the middle of the eighth century in order to assist Pope Stephen II in his negotiations with the Frankish Mayor of the Palace, Pepin the Short. The Pope crossed the Alps to anoint the latter as king in 754, thereby enabling, the Carolingian family, to which Pepin belonged, to supplant the old Merovingian royal line which had become decadent and powerless and to become in law as well as in fact rulers of the Franks. In return, Pepin seems to have promised to give to the Pope those lands in Italy which the Lombards had taken from Byzantium. The promise was fulfilled in 756. Constantine's alleged gift made it possible to interpret Pepin's grant not as a benefaction but as a restoration.
Quote:This happened so frequently that for 700 years the Greeks referred to Rome as "the home of forgeries
Quote:Thats absurd. The Church ALWAYS had authority over itself. The Church never had and never claimed authority over kings except in religious matters.
Quote:The interdict served as the pope's second weapon. Some scholars call it an "ecclesiastical lockout." What excommunication was to individuals, the interdict was to an entire nation. A papal interdict suspended all public worship and withdrew the sacraments. After the interdict went into effect, Citizens usually pressured their rulers to repent or abdicate. Occasionally citizens overthrew their rulers. Pope Innocent III utilized or threatened interdicts 85 times during his papacy.
Quote:And if the Church had absolute authority over kings then why did the Investiture Struggle ever happen? Why did King Philip the Fair kidnap Pope Boniface VIII? Why did the popes need the Normans to protect their elections from imperial and even Roman political interference? Has Schroeder ever even attempted to research this?
Quote:The Investiture Struggle lasted until 1122. Actually, similar issues were raised in France and England, and compromises were reached there a bit earlier. But the agreement of 1122, also a compromise, is the traditional ending date, so I'll stay with that. The Struggle actually masked a deeper issue: who was the ultimate authority in Christendom--pope or king (or emperor)? So, even though the question of who performed the ceremony of investiture and what it signified was more or less settled by 1122, conflicts between popes and kings were by no means over. That conflict directly affected the nature and course and timing of various crusades.
Quote:The Papacy is not and was not a secular source. The Pope was the Bishop of Rome. That is not a secular source.
Quote:No where. Constantine, by the way, tried to exert authority over the Church and the popes rejected his attempts!
Quote:No, it isnt. It is proof that a forged document was believed in because it reflected what actually already existed. The Donation of Constantine was not the founder of the papacy Christ was.
Quote:And what does it say that Protestants so readily believe that which is so easily demonstrated to be untrue? Do Protestants naturally gravitate to dishonest renderings of history?
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Quote:~{Luke 6:39}~---The Blind led by the Blind---He also told them this Parable "Can a blind man lead a blind man???Will they not both, fall into a pit???A Student is not above his teacher;but everyone, who is fully trained will be like his teacherNIV
Jan 21 04 7:45 PM
Jan 21 04 8:23 PM
Quote:Catholic's do not despise the bible, we put in together. It would be like hating one's own arm.
Quote:~{Isaiah 30:12}~12 Wherefore thus saith the Holy One of Israel,Because ye "despise" this word,Sounds just like Catholicsand trust in oppression and perverseness,---{Sexual Sickos}--and stay thereon: The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.
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